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Reflecting on my ‘Bout “One Love”‘ Seminar presentation, I found Beenie mans contextualization of Reggae and Dancehall to be much better than Buju Banton’s. This has a lot to do with eurasianish aesthetic and conceptual interference.
Will share thoughts on an AbibitumiTV post as the debut of my ‘Ridim an Riizn’ (Riddim and Reason) Series — suun kom/soon come.
In the meantime, enjoy this interview
abibitumitv.com
Beenie Man Talks Dancehall Roots, Iconic Moments & More on Drink Champs | Full Episode
N.O.R.E. & DJ EFN are the Drink Champs. In this episode we chop it up with the legend himself, Beenie Man! The King of Dancehall joins us for an episode you don’t want to miss. Beenie Man pulled up to … Continue reading
Nnemkadi, Bakari and 3 others25 Comments-
For comparison, also check out Buju Banton’s
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My bredda I have been thinking about you and hoping you are doing ok due to Vybz’ relationship moves as I know you put him on a grand pedestal of Blackness during that seminar presentation and analysis. Yu pree dis chune ya? https://genius.com/Vybz-kartel-interracial-lyrics Anyway I did like he acknowledge Papa Garvey and spoke out against bleaching as trying to kill the creator and destroying one’s melanin in that recent Drink Champs interview.
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@AfroN8V Hey bro! I cringed a bit, but i am still alive LOL. I was not surprised at vybz falling victim to bedroom gentrification given certain his precursory behaviors and his imprisonment. That I said, I follow what Nana Omowale Malcolm X said about negro entertainers and politics — no exceptions. However, our artists have aesthetic consciousness that is important to take in – that is different from political consciousness & behavior (though the two can overlap sometimes). Given our current challenges under the white terror domination system, Black artists tend to reflect both our cultural expression and confusion simultaneously. Solution – imo – the stronger we get institutionally to point that we dictate the socialization of our children on a larger scale, the gap between aesthetic and political consciousness & behavior changes in an artist. I would say Tamu Mazama and, in reggae, Yeza are tangible examples of this (that I know of).
As far as a “grandscale of blackness” – that would be an incomplete interpretation of my perspective on vybz kartel. Musically, vybz kartel is undeniably superior to a bob marley from a cultural nationalist perspective (as I outlined). On a political level, neither of them are good. However, marley is a few degrees worse because he was part of a Black movement – so I hold him to a higher standard than someone who is not. Bob marley, cheated on his Black wife with multiple white women and all mek song for the dutty gyal AND he was abusive. Then, on top of that, he stated explicitly he does not choose black or white. Bob marley should not, in any capacity, have his picture sitting next to Papa Garvey or Omowale Malcolm X, n.k. The fact that they put him next to Nana Louise Bennett-Coverly “Miss Lou” in order to make her seem relevant (based on backra politricks) is a high level insult to Miss Lou. There is no such treatment with vybz kartel (nor should there be).
The focus of my analysis, however, more focused on the aesthetic aspect. bob marley is unique for an artist in that his politics matches his aesthetic perfectly – mulatto through n through. Vybz Kartel, in contrast, reflects the cultural schizophrenia of Black people in the Jamaica context, Black aesthetic with mulattifed political consciousness. Bounty Killer recently made an observation about the decline in caliber of vybz music’s from the bleaching foolishness. So, if we take his bedroom gentrification seriously (as if it wasnt a get-out-of-jail move), it reinforces my point that we have to take bedroom colonialism as having aesthetic implications as the themes in his music are significantly different.
The key issue for my aesthetic analysis – The Jamaican language and expression which is often looked down upon as “vulgar” because it does not conform to eurasian aesthetics of “mind over body” that many Jamaicans internalize due intergenerational christianization. Ex, many of the more baby making songs and dances in dancehall are very much in alignment with our worldview and musical aesthetic, but christianization makes us overlook them or, even worse, see them as “crude”.
Ranking artists from Jamaican language & expression standpoint – vybz is arguably the best of all time. In fact, leading dancehall artists would dominate that arena over roots reggae because of the centrality of Jamaican language & expression in the genre. The roots reggae artists would rank low based on that standard – because of the christianism & the predominance of english in early roots reggae. You can understand the Blackness language & aesthetic expression of JA way more in dancehall artists, esp vybz, more so than roots reggae.
Also, majority of the political music in reggae tends to be “one love” politics. Thus, simply having “a message” doesn’t make a song Black from a Garveyite/Black Nationalist political standpoint. Ex, bob marley has no song that would remotely align with that – given his mulatto politics & aesthetics. In contrast, there are individual songs from dancehall artists, even vybz and Beenie man, that align more with a Black Cultural Nationalist aesthetic & political mindset than high ranked marley political and love songs – ESP love songs. There are several songs centered on Black women or touch on gender complementarity (social, aesthetic, political), whereas the supposedly “deep” love songs from bob marley are mulatto lyricism (e.k.a racially ambiguous) in that he can address any race of women.
Basically, when I say vybz kartel is Blacker than marley, in terms of legendary artists, it is an aesthetic observation.-
@taharka2018
I overstand. My pushing back is more so for the Rootz Kulcha Reggae artists that ARE Blacker than Vybz in all ways, lyrically, politcally, socially, culturally, aesthetically, linguistically like Sizzla. We caan just use Bob Marley and say a Rootz Reggae nuh mek it. What about Sizzla (im tell yu No white god and sing Black ooman and child & even use Afrikan word like bandulu), Capleton (im tell yu nuff ting fe bun in Cooyah Cooyah), Anthony B (im tell yu fyan pon Rome), Buju (im sing Papa Garvey words, Up Ye Mighty Race) who all have range and the Jamaican language on 100%. These artists have made the Blackest music a Jamaica cause they covered all ground from the language to the political thought. Now from a Garveyite perspective, are you arguing that Papa Garvey’s message is more conveyed by Dancehall than Rastafari Rootz Kulcha artists? and I AM NOT talking about those singing “one love”, which I think is a big stereotype. Baba Muta has spoken on this, the Garveyite Rastafari are the MEMORY OF Jamaica, and de few holding up Papa Garvey till dis day pon de island. A lie mi a tell?Now if you want to discount the artists I cite for being Rastafari and the Christianism in it, then we must also apply that logic to Papa Garvey for him being Christian. So, I’m saying, I am recognizing their Black contributions in spite of the Christianism.
I like that how you put that Vybz is a representation of Jamaican schizophrenia, or per Kobi Kambon’s words, cultural misorientation.
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@AfroN8V Okay, I see where we’re missing each other.
A) My presentation was about (1) the bob marley syndrome and, on a broader level, (2) outlining a Black Cultural Nationalist standard for measuring the quality an individual song of any subject matter — not only political commentary — for a holistic approach. We shouldn’t ask if the artist or song is conscious — that’s a dead end (given our current conditions) — but rather I’m saying that we should ask *how* a song, deliberate or not, aligns with a Black Cultural Nationalist objective as I defined in the presentation.
B) Roots Kulchaz does not have a monopoly on political consciousness to Dancehall as Buju claims — big mistake. Beenie Man — a dancehall artist — not only sing songs that reinforce Black aesthetic norms (man fi ooman), but he also critiques bedroom colonialism explicitly. For ex, which roots artist directly criticizes bedroom colonialism or one love politics that infect Rasta & Reggae? Only one artist I know of is Maroon Queen made a song ‘Black N Proud’ calling out contradictory behavior of bedroom colonialism — and she mentions hypocrisy amongst rasta. If you know of others — please let me know (I’m serious). As far as socio-political commentary, vybz kartel is not a conscious artist, but he is multifaceted. For, ex review my discussion of his song ‘Come Breed Me’ in my presentation. Vybz is much more dynamic in range of subject matter than most artists in both dancehall and reggae. As Beenie Man explains, Reggae’s focus is political commentary, Dancehall’s focus is life in general.
C) The ‘One love’ thing is a serious problem in Rasta and Reggae circles. Your examples — Capelton, Sizzla, Buju beg fren fi DJ Khaled — an arab music ginnal n teef. The way many reggae artists love off ‘miss chin’ — chinee music ginnal n teef — big problem. Considering their status as ‘conscious artists’ — dem fi know beta! Vybz is not a conscious artists, I expect bakraisms from him, not the artists who are professing Black consicousness. Maroon Queen’s critique of this is on point. I think this problem is an effects of the bob marley syndrome.
D) I’m fully aware of the language & expression improvements in roots , I listen to Richie Spice, Queen Ifrica, Daweh Congo, and some younger artists — Kabaka Pyramid, Yeza, and Young Muta (Muta grandpickney). However, the predominance of christianisms in the aesthetic and ideology of Rasta makes roots kulcha much more conservative in choreography, expression, and, in some ways, subject matter. Dancehall is not limited by christian aestheticism, hence its grounding in organic Kmtyw aesthetics of the JA context. Ex, much of what rastas and others call “slackness” is basic Kmtyw dance & expression, but they are looking at it from a chrisitianized perspective. Of more recent reggae artists, I think Yeza, in particular, is breaking that problem — I’ve discussed her in my presentation.
As far as lyricism is considered, vybz kartel stands out among JA artists in both dancehall and reggae for his lyricism. His mastery of the Kmtyw metaphorical aesthetic of JA in particular is what makes him standout. He’s not matched in that by anybody — that’s not a slight on others, he’s talented. Hence his huge following. Observe, for ex, his song ‘Ramping Shop’ (ft. Spice).
As far as ‘politically’ Blacker music, simply having political message focus in your music does not make one Blacker, it just means your focus is political messaging. So, being that vybz is not a conscious artist (obviously), it would be silly assess his music as less Black than someone else. What we have to do is song to song comparison rather than wholesale generalizations.For example, vybz kartel always a big up Papa Gyaarvey (despite not following his politics in any shape or fashion) much like Reggae artists. In fact, his song ‘Jamaica’, he only quotes Papa Gyaarvey and references the the Black Nation heroes of Jamaica — not the malevolent mulattos that the bakra govament force-up pon we– and his social and politcal analysis of JA is very precise (you’d be shocked). In his prime, songs where his aesthetic consciousness & skills combined with political consciousness, it’s pure Blacknificence — key here is combination.
E) When I say Garveyite, I mean his observation of ‘Black Spectacles’ in that we should see our features as beautiful, and the ugliness in the other race. I obviously depart from the christian compromise of Garvey himself (given his social and historical context), but the spirit of the Black Spectacles commentary is important for how we should think about our aesthetics & nation-building which we sometimes get schizofrenic about because of abrahamization. For ex, dancehall artists talking about ‘big batty’ and ‘pum-pum’ is not necessarily objectification automatically, but the directness of the JA language and general Kmtyw valuation of fertility/procreation — we see them talk same way in Classical Kmt. Just as we, in our Black frame of mind, like our big nose — wi love heavy weight gyal! Seen! So, the black spectacles point is me saying we need to value our organic aesthetic.
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Agoo, I meant to respond to this before but got busy. For me though, the ones I mentioned are an overlap of Dancehall and Rootz Kulcha e.g., Sizzla, Capleton, Anthony B. Sizzla is unapologetic about being strictly Black woman. Also they not trying to be Khaled’s friend, it’s Khaled that look for them like a big fan of Jamaica he’s been, remember he was even in Shottas. Again though, I think Capleton, Sizzla and Anthony B shatter that dichotomization of “Dancehall” vs “Reggae (Roots)” Also, there’s interviews of Beenie Man self-identifying as Rasta too, and he wouldn’t advocate for a Reggae / Dancehall divide in my opinion. Beenie Man as a self-identified Rasta has kept the tenet of Pan-Afrikanism by claiming all Black music and Afrikan music, as he didn’t hate on Afro-Beats like bitter Buju did. So what is your perspective on Beenie being a Rastaman? Don’t you think he learned what he learned in defense of Blackness via Rastafari?
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@AfroN8V
I think there is no excuse for Rasta artists to link up with kkkhaled — dutty sand bakra. No bakra can ‘love’ JA — pure fetish ting. I expect better from them — no excuse for me.As far Buju’s commentary on afro-beats, I don’t think he was hating nor was he being bitter. I think afro-beats and reggae is not a sensible comparison — ShaKaRa made this point in a discussion (I agree with him). He sees the popularity of afro-beats as an opportunity to mass broadcast political messaging, but the artists aren’t doing it. Again, afro-beats is more like dancehall content wise, so it doesn’t compare to reggae.
That said, I think the problem of seeing ‘political messaging’ as the only valuable or most important music as opposed to evaluating the actual political value in political songs — that’s the issue I have with Buju. This is not a problem exclusive to him though.
Re their musical output of Reggae artists, I have never said Reggae artists or didn’t produce Black Music in Reggae. Both Reggae and Dancehall have the same core problem, it just manfiests slightly differently (bob marley in one, sean paul in another lol) — this just isn’t realized enough.I’m more saying that Reggae/Roots Kulcha is *not* superior to Dancehall as discussed in my presentation. Simply making political music doesn’t make a genre better than another. I compare political songs to political songs — judge things within their context. Ex- If a song is political, but promotes black disintegratonism ‘one love’ and/or his politically ambigous and/or — that is awful political music. This is a major problem for Reggae.
As far as Beenie Man on reggae and dancehall. He distinguishes them based on riddim style and, most esp, central content. More specifically, he says message music is how he understands reggae, while ‘how the people live’ is how he explains dancehall. That is the best contextualization that I have heard.
I think Beenie understands the difference between dancehall and reggae more than Buju because the christianism didn’t affect his Kmtyw aesthetic instincts, due to his groundation inna dancehall. Buju has conservative christinsanity (respectability politics) that is internalized within Rastafarai. I have written something on this (soon come promise).
I wouldn’t say a reggae artist is blacker than a dancehall artist based on his message music, that’s a content difference for me — not quality difference for me. Takes vybz kartel, for ex, when I say that he has Blacker music i am talking primarily about his lyricism and lack of christian aestheticism (which reggae struggles with epically). His mastery of JA expression is not bakrafied and incomparable — sizzla, capleton nuh reach dem level de. shoot most dancehall artist na go reach dem aites. Certain songs, as you point out, are bakrafication schupidness, which are tied to behavioral problems he succumbed to are undeniable — I’m fully aware of them. However, Prime kartel era (before he engaged in those vulgar forms of bakrafication), is very different which shows how his social misbehaviors has hindered his music severely (more so than prison in my opinon). Prime Kartel has excellent songs in wine-op chune and message music. Bottom line, if I look at Kartel at his best/Blackest there’s very few who compare in either genre.
I know artists represents growth in the right direction away from christinsanity thinking and aesthetics towards Kmtyw worldview and aesthetically for Reggae. Young Muta (Mutabaruka’s grandson) is another example. Kabaka Pyramid nuh too bad. I would though say nobadi a touch Yeza right ya now. Yeza has a lyricism and content harmony that I have not seen or heard before.As far as Rast christiansanity problem. I think the root of it is twofold – christian concepts (gods and prophet) and contradictory positive elevation of selassie and Nana Garvey (dem fi kom off a selassie now). christinsanity and selassie worship set the bad foundation that enables one love marleyism.
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@taharka2018
I doh ovastand yu reasonin’ wit di Buju vs Beenie ting caw 1. Buju started as a Dancehall artist so that was his groundation. 2. Beenie also calls himself a Rasta so he would have the same issue you accuse Buju of having because of Rastafari.LOL@ di Vybz worship “sizzla, capleton nuh reach dem level de. shoot most dancehall artist na go reach dem aites.” Aight I see fe yu no one toppin prime Vybz. I ovastand dis as a generational ting. like Black yute into Hip Hop saying Kendrick is the GOAT.
yep good thing you specifiy prime kartel – “Takes vybz kartel, for ex, when I say that he has Blacker music i am talking primarily about his lyricism and lack of christian aestheticism (which reggae struggles with epically).” cause 1 of him new chune is “God Is The Greatest “
On di Khaled ting, it’s way deeper than him, also got to be consistent and hold all artists accountable for linking up with non-Kmtyu because of di industry they’re in e.g., chinese owned VP records. unfortunately di reality is dis industry was mostly managed by non-Kmtyu for Kmtyu artist. and wah to say bou di Europe tour ting on how these artist make their bread?
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@AfroN8V
How christianization affects Buju is different than Beenie when it comes to how they think about music and/or the music that they make.Buju referred to reggae as ‘kings music’ and music of ‘ancestors’, while he dismissed dancehall as ‘slangy’ language and ‘sexualizing’ which is totally inaccurate. Beenie explains it correctly — roots kulcha is messaging, dancehall is how people live (which includes whining). Buju wasn’t being antagonistic towards dancehall, but his commentary reflects the dominant condescening and eurasianistic attitudes towards whine-up chune in rastafarianism which is without question reflective of the ideological christinsanity.
I understand the economic compromises by nature of the industry for MANY artists outta JA (I conceded that in my talk) — western eurasian tours, mis chin plantation. BUT Buju dem no av no kinda money problem like dat. A choose dem choose backra lan.
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88,648
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
I don’t know any of their music well enough to contribute, but this exchange is serious, but hilarious. @taharka2018 @AfroN8V
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@taharka2018 @talawa-adodogmail-com Well hey Dancehall is messaging too. Rootz Kulcha also captures how Rastafari and what Afrikan people at large, live and go through, but most anti-Afrikan Kmtyu doh wan hear bou di Mumaland. To get a holistic perspective of Jamaica, you cannot exclude either and you might need to add Gospel to that because of all the Jamaican Christians that don’t listen to either Rootz Kulcha (too much Abibiman talk fe dem) or Dancehall. These depict how Afrikan people a Jamaica live as a whole on a daily. Yes Rastafari people are a “minority” in Jamaica so it’s easily discounted. While the average Jamaican will be more represented by Dancehall and Gospel Jamaican music. Rootz Kulcha has its issues as you’ve pointed out, however it’s hard to find another music genre on the planet that’s instilled a love for the Motherland to this level, and especially in the Diaspora, where most don’t want be called Afrikan. That’s why the Motherland continent loves Rootz Kulcha, a genre where they could find unprecedented embrace, and yes they love Dancehall too.
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@AfroN8V You’re correct.
My lazy way of explaining it, Roots Kulcha/Reggae speaks *about* Afrika/Kemet WAY MORE than Dancehall (it is Pan-Afrikan political music), but Dancehall artists tend to reflect Kmtyw aesthetic in a Jamaican context. This is why both resonate genres with audiences in the continent, esp Ghana and Gambia.My core issues with the reggae vs dancehall (1) the idea that dancehall is somehow inferior because it’s not exclsuively political messaging. That is the christinsanity of mind/body foolishness that infects Rastafarai which has us thinking a bob marley love song (which is clearly aamw non-riddm and concepts) is ‘sophisticated’ music, but a whine-up and bedroom chune are dismissed as slackness even though they reflects our actual aesthetic and, in certain extents, our deep thought. we have to be able to analyze whine-up chune in their proper social and aesthetic context — complementary vs fragementary choregraphy and lyrical content and dem ting de. (2) There has to be a principled and ideologically clear way to evaluate political music in and of itself — we have to ask is this song decidedly integrationist or nationalist?
Ex- chronixxx has been to kmt nuff times, but defends backra foss ina reggae and im talk bare ‘one love’ crap. Spice, the least race focused, tell Stonebwoy fi talk Twi ina fi dem chune. Social justice music is not her focus, but a Pan-Afrikan aesthetic consciousness (incl her choice of hairstyle in said videos) comes out in her duets with Afrobeats and Afrodancehall artists in Kmt, such as ‘jiggle and whine’.
Again, however, I think Yeza the only example I’ve seen of an artist who is breaking out of that mindset and I can see the aesthetic result (if you know others def let me know)
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@taharka2018 aane, this is a good conclusion. Spice has a lot of potential man, good share of political n africonscious messaging she has done when she wants to, & Pan-Afrikan collabs. A lot of Dancehall artist have potential to make more political songs if they choose to, like when Bounty has done it, he can do it. Even Mavado. I know seh dem nuh wan be serious all di time. And you’re right it’s appropriate for Dancehall to capture fun vibes fe ppl to be in a festive mood too. I’d luv fe hear your analysis pon Soca, and are you familiar with what Nana Tosh seh?
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@AfroN8V soca – i’m more of a casual listener and late comer. Not familiar with Nana Peter Tosh commentary on soca.
What song that I found aesthetically good, but politically dreadful — “famalay” (listen if you dare, just for sake of analytical context). But I’ve heard others like ‘I’m an African’ by Calypso Rose (who is a soca/kaiso elder).
From a glance, i think the messaging — when there — tends to be more subliminal and metaphorical, whereas dancehall is very direct and visual in whatever they’re talking about.
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@AFRON8V never been a fan of machel montano. Even before being conscious, something never captivated me about him. He’s one of those agents who pushes the “we are one people” rhetoric in Trinidad, and I suspect that he’s a slight skin bleacher. Anytime you hear people like him randomly come out with a song supposedly showing their pride for their blackness, just ignore it. 😑
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@makiyasmack meda wo ase for the heads up!
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@taharka2018 oh yes im very familiar with the song “famalay”, Machel Montano’s joint that gets played at every carnival numerous times. That song is all BS and propaganda. They definitely see race and color. I talked to a Guyanese Afrikan sistar, deeply melanated, who goes to all the islands’ carnivals and she spoke on how that was all BS like a commercial because she experienced nuff colorism in carnival. Sistar @makiyasmack can speak to this very well on T&T too. Now regarding Nana Tosh, I should correct it to say he spoke directly about Calypso, he basically said it was fukkery, all silly talk and no rebelutionary music with a message.
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@AfroN8V Oh truss — dem too lie. Wi knoe how di ting go widdem *eyeroll*.
Re: Nana Tosh. I know of Kaiso artists who did have politics inna dem music, esp Mighty Sparrow (who music is of an earlier generation more close to Mento in Jamaica). I think Nana Tosh may have, in this situation, have the same problem that Buju has with afrobeats (which I am 50/50 on)
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@taharka2018 aane, I don’t think Nana Tosh may have done a deep dive on the music, but probably critiquing the mainstream commercial stuff he was exposed to. I need to check Mighty Sparrow’s and Calypso Rose’s chunes.
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@AfroN8V he could very well be correct though (but i dont really know calypso or soca well enough). But I think they are less political than even dancehall artists, it’s very reflective — i suspect — of the indo-eurasian numerical and social interference in places like trinidad and guyana (esp triniland).
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@AFRON8V it’s true. Carnival when I was a child in T&T was a lot more Black than it is now. Nowadays, the Black sisters get pushed to d back of d scene while the Indians and mixed hybrid folk take the center scene. Spoke about this to my father recently, who still lives in T&T and he says that he saw this coming a very long time ago.
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12,910
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
I feel like maybe this can be a weekly scheduled call/show to discuss and may be good for engagement?
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👀 im just here to be nosey and learn something.
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