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Neter Neb posted an update in the group
4 years agowHm mswt mdw nTr (Medew Netcher Study Group) 4 years ago · In this text, first line we have: iw.f sDmy mdt kmt = He listened to the Black Language/ speech (Language of Black Community)…..
Thoughts ??? is – iw.f an auxilarilary for present or past ???
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km.t heare looks masculine <> ???
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Htp. As for past or present, “iw” does not have a tense specification, though Egyptologists impose it because Indo-Eurasian uses tense. iw=f sdm.y could be “he listen(s) or he listen(ed)” for a English speaker, but it simply “he listen” which the time being contextual. -
/0/ sDm.n=f – im don lisn / he done heard = he listened already —–
iw sDm.n=f – mi behn iier/ I been heard = he had listened since long ago —- This a “completive aspect” and “perfect” aspect. iw makes perfect aspect because the action is a background context at the time of speaking, whereas a complete aspect is not neccessarily so. I hope this helps with the “iw” question
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You are showing the auxiliary for sDm.n=f, which according to grammar has a past tense aspect, and this aux can also be a [aux] for sDm=f as some present tense aspect, which is well known. My question pertains to this [aux] that has directly a pronoun attachment before the verb verb[ jw=f, in this usage, TLA register simply as an auxiliary (helper) and particle. It has a pronoun <> attached to it. For example, TLA registers as auxiliary or particle.
(1) letter, pCairo CG 58043, letter to care for a servant
TLA transliteration and translation[auxillary] + f = He was [verb]
jw =f dr.y jm
He was turned away from there(2) Saqqara, north of the step pyramid, sacrificial chapel of the Sechemanchptah
[auxillary] + f = He is [verb]
jw = f mdwi
He is talking(3) Saqqara, north of the step pyramid, tomb of Tjy
[auxillary] + f = He’s been [verb]
jw = f xAi.w
He’s been measured.Based on these examples, would my translation be accurate according ??? and is <> feminine ??? it seems to be masculine, but TLA has it at feminine, Thanks
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According to grammar, the auxiliary does not in fact have a tense, because it is a helper to the verb, which is why the name auxiliary is placed.
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Yeah, Particle is the better way to explain (for lack of better terms) it since it’s not verbal, but I used the sDm.n examples to show the difference in how “iw” is used in a non-tense way. Still tryn’a figure it out though. It gives speaker relativity to action being described, i just haven’t figured out how to term it
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According to Hoch, he describes the initial <> as a particle that when it’s attached to the <>as present or circumstantial tense. Hoch, explains that the <> cannot stand on its own and must use a particle or modifier for auxiliary <> or <> , [pg. 37]. He also mentioned that /iw/ as a particle cannot be translated to English that well, so it agrees with your assessment. But I wasn’t referring to this, I was referring to another usage other than the /iw + sDm n f = that conveys past time and /iw + sDm.f = conveys present time, in the circumstantial section.
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Re: iw=i ir=i — according to Allen (2014, 269-70) it’s the earlier version of “imperfect expression”, so iw=i ir=i is “I am doing”. This, Allen argues is replaced by “iw=f hr irt”….Hoch (1997: 47) has it as a topicalization of the subject). I lean more to Hoch’s explanation mainly because I think it’s a Eurasian translation problem. But, all in all, iw=i ir=i is suppose to communicate a generality
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Thanks, this is what I was talking about, your reference to page 47, let me share a screenshot,
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89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
When translating this type of construction from Twi to krakkka, it usually goes like “It is the speech of the man that saves him” to get the fronting effect. Barima kasa no na ɛgye no.
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Question would /iw/ be similar to how Blacks in Baltimore Slang, use /yo/?
For example:
yo + [verb]
yo, doing himyo + [verb]
yo, be sillyyo + [verb]
yo getting moneyyo + [verb]
yo, think he hard-
Hmm, I could be wrong, but I wonder if it could be like m=k (but this may be due to my ignorance of Baltimore talks).
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89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
I would hazard toward m.k and m.Tn
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Noun + sDm=f — the sDm=f is a resumptive clause, ex: kofi he hear
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I mean to say, is this auxiliary + pronoun assisting the verb to be present or past, I could find the edit button, for wrong wording
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*could’nt
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89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
These are good points @taharka2018 with regard to aspect vs tense.
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89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
Interestingly, when I was doing my Ph.D. my two supervisors had a longstanding, yet cordial, dispute over whether Akan has aspect (Ɔbenfo E. Kweku Osam’s position) or tense (Ɔbenfo Kofi K. Saah’s position) with regard to completive aspect vs. past tense. Because Ɔbenfo Osam was my principal supervisor, I went with aspect, lol. But seriously, understanding aspect–what it is and how it operates–is crucial to the connections between Kmtyw from classical times up to now and it ties in very much to the core of our worldview and how it is articulated through how we speak and why we speak the way that we do.
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Htp Okunini Kambon. Do you recall why Ɔbenfo Saah argued for tense? I only ask out of curiosity because it reminds me, to some extent, of Gyekye arguing for a future tense concept in his critique of Mbiti.
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89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
He’s from the chomsyan generative grammar tradition which takes english as the universal standard against which all other languages are measured.
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Ah okay, not what I was thinking but makes sense. His interference. unfortunately, has been common in Afrikan Caribbean linguistic studies.
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89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
The plural marker would make it mdwt rather than mdt. @ntrnb18
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Thanks, but Doc, isn’t that abstract plurality? similar to the operations of plurals with three strokes in feminine singular collectives, like pat = nobles, or even kmt = Blacks, whereas you see the plurality is abstract ? for the translation would be mdwt= language source TLA, the translation is language or languages? or being that it is feminine it must be mdwt when the strokes or observed, how would we know exactly ?
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89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
This is where looking at fully articulated instances and comparing can be instructive where you can see the tyw bird to get a sense of how the transliteration should operate.
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You are suggesting km in this instance would be a variation of the older Nisbe form ??
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89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
Most likely as it retains the same semantic value referring to Black people. I think the confusion comes in with weak consonants and how to handle them, which is a longstanding issue in terms of representation in transliteration.
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Yes, I have to agree, with the source you have shown, so in regards to these grammar facts, proper transliteration would be
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iw=f sDm mdwt kmtjw
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89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
For reference, see how Allen (3rd edition) handles the transliteration.
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I see, you are correct
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Here is why I agree, in the three instances of the Pyramid texts by James P. Allen, there are two instances where we have the tyw bird, and one instance where the weaker sound in this case tyw bird is omitted in replaced by a /u/.
Pyramid text 1 = kmtyw with tyw bird
Pyramid text 2 = kmtjw with tyw bird
Pyramid Text 3= kmtjw without tyw bird-
89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
BlackCellent demonstration of what is going on here @ntrnb18
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I have to agree with you here, we can find this same omitting of the tyw in the pyramid text exactly
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89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
What I posted is from the pyramid text of sA Ra Ppi Mry-Ra and it has the tyw bird there. I would be interested in seeing the actual text of what you posted. Where is the original post coming from? Maybe we can track it down.
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these are three separate Pyramid Text, by James P Allen, Pyramid Text 674
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The third Pyramid text does not have the tyw bird
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Though it is a variation
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89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
I can see at a glance that the middle one is that of sA Ra Ppi Mry-Ra. Who are the other ones for? It’s clearly a variation and a good one to be aware of. Great research, my brother!!!
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It supports your claims exactly, I will find it for you
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From order 1-2-3, represented duplicated passages in all three pyramid corpus of these Black ancestors
First Row = Pepi Merire’ = P
Middle Row = Pepi Neferkare = N
Last Row = Neith’s = Nt-
P = kmtyw = kmtyw
N= kmtyw = kmtjw
Nt= kmtjw = kmu -
89,098
Abibisika (Black Gold) Points
Got it. Great work once again.
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